On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Support support at motorcyclecarburetorrebuild (dot)com wrote:
-- do not edit --

Mike,

A customer support technician has replied to your support request, #846321 with the following response:

Hey Mike,

See these:




Nothing wrong with your seals. You need to call me.

Thanks
Elijah

From: mikexxxxx200@xxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: Carb problem
Date: January 27, 2012 10:33:34 AM CST
To: support at motorcyclecarburetorrebuild (dot)com

Elijah, thanks for getting the carbs back to me. they are still untuneable....massive vacume leak at the throttle shafts. i have been doing some research and have been reliably assured by two sources that sonic cleaning damages the felt shaft seals. i am getting a price on have them replaced. and i want to know if you would be willing to pay to have them replaced. i am a little leary of sending them back. mike


On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Support wrote:

Hi Mike,

I have done many hundreds of carburetors and a good bit of what you state as fact is simply not correct. I will-attempt to clear up some of your misbeliefs and also propose a potential solution for you.

I stand behind my work and still would like to assist you in the matter (within reason) and with regard to the carburetors. Problems you likely have and which are not problems with the carbs themselves are not within my scope of services, my power to fix, nor my problem; simply put.

I understand your frustration and here is what I am proposing as a means to resolve this to your satisfaction:

First about the throttle shaft seals.

Against my own better judgment, I agreed to take apart your carbs to inspect the factory (felt) seals. Against my judgment because doing this level of tear-down has real potential to actually cause a problem attempting to identify a non-existent one. The fact that your problem has not changed indicates that I did not create a new one and there is little question in my mind that your problem is not related to throttle shaft seals.

These seals have nearly never been found to be the problem. Your assertion that the "reliable assurances by two sources" is not reliable at all. If ultrasonic cleaning damaged felt (or rubber) carburetor seals then this type of technology and equipment would not be used by countless professionals around the country in this and in other similar industries. If this equipment damaged the seals, what would be the alternative?? Chem-dip? Far more aggressive, caustic, unhealthy and none-the-less does NOT damage the felt seals either. That's why Keihin used felt and not some other material.

After conferring with an expert that I know this is what he sent me in response:

"Vacuum leaks at throttle shafts is extremely rare. I have yet to see it on VB series Keihins after working on them since they were new and continuously since. That is, for over 40 years. Also likely the fast idle mechanism is the issue, far more likely than throttle shaft seals.

You can actually test for it, by making sure the throttle plates are completely closed, and making up a fitting to vacuum test the shaft seals (basically a rubber stopper with a brass tube sticking out and attached to a Mityvac. I have tested the seals this way before, but have yet to find a bad one. Far more likely on DOHC engines is bad pulsers which affect revving past 5,000 rpm, hardened manifolds which cause the same symptom, poor valve sealing (endemic to the DOHC engine due to its valve and seat design) leading to unstable idle, and a lot more. The DOHC engine is fraught with numerous issues such as these."

(40 years of carb rebuilding especially this type of carb)

This expert charges $150 to do what I did free for you. Take apart and inspect or change the throttle shaft seals. I am already $150 out-of-pocket on a problem that is almost assuredly unrelated to the work I did for you or to your carbs.

I am sorry but your "reliable sources" are providing you with info that is utter nonsense. Having personally, seen your seals, I am completely confident this is *NOT*the problem. Those seals were in near-perfect original condition. Sharp edge all the way around and completely full. They looked brand new.

Also there was no unusual looking "play" in the shaft/housing juncture. They seemed to be pretty tight fitting (based on the number of other carbs I have done that do NOT have a vacuum problem at this juncture)

Proposal and Final thoughts:

If you want I can arrange to have them independently tested for you by a certified, experienced expert of my choosing and personal knowledge living in the mid-west United States.

If, after he gets your carbs and certifies that the problem is your throttle shaft seals,I will pay the cost of having him replace them if he can certify that this is your problem and only problem.Unless and until he provides me with information that your ONLY problem may have been bad throttle shaft seals, I cannot offer to pay for anything. There are just too many other possible and LIKELY causes of your problem that have not been ruled out.

I am sorry you are having problems. It is my earnest desire to provide the highest level of quality work and support. Nevertheless, there are MANY non-carb related problems that affect a bike's performance and I cannot and will not be held responsible for such things.

We can discuss this by phone if you like... please let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

==
Elijah
American Craftsmanship Reborn
Quality work at affordable prices
http://MotorCycleCarburetorRebuild.com


From: mikexxxxx200@xxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: Carb problem
Date: January 30, 2012 2:33:29 PM CST
To: support at motorcyclecarburetorrebuild (dot)com

i am not trying to be accusatory or snotty.
here are my sources: the technical staff at motorcyclecarbs.com inc. and lee brown, honda dealer mechanic for over 20 years.
are the seals dry felt or are they oil impregnated?i have found a source for them
i don't think that sonic cleaning would damage rubber seals or parts.
after installing the carbs the bike went to cycle tune, a specialty motorcycle tuning service here in sacramento, to be tuned. where Ray determined and showed me that there is a big throttle shaft air leak. the bike has had a complete top end job, been run in and had a valve adjust subsequent to that. the carb mounts/manifolds are new and pliable with new gaskets and the carbs are fully seated. the bike is being tuned with the vacuum fuel petcock removed to eliminate that as a potential problem the battery is new. this may seem irrelevant but these bikes will not run correctly with a weak battery. i am assuming that the pulsers are the air cutoff valves and you replaced those. i may be wrong on this and in that case i would be happy to be enlightened
i am going to do a vacuum test as described in your forwarded instructions.
i understand and appreciate that you have gone out of your way to provide good service.


On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Support wrote:

Hi Mike,
I didn't perceive your communication as either accusation or snotty, just so you know. You have a problem, I want to help. Let's keep it in that spirit and belief about each other and this thing should go well from both of our perspectives. Let me know what you find and if you could specifically list the precise "symptoms" you are having rather than the conclusion about what is causing it, that would be very helpful. I will see if I can provide you with any additional info that may help get to the bottom of this process.
I am going to add these last couple emails to your ticket, reopen and request that you respond via the ticket if at all possible. If not, no problem, I will do it manually for you when I get a note from you.
Sincerely,
==
Elijah
American Craftsmanship Reborn
Quality work at affordable prices
http://MotorCycleCarburetorRebuild.com


The rest of the story...


From: mikexxxxx200@xxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: Carb problem
Date: January 30, 2012 2:33:29 PM CST
To: support@motorcyclecarburetorrebuild.com

Elijah, well, i owe you an apology. i got the bike back from my "tuner" and took matters in my own hands. got them synched and set the idle mixture with a color tune. it's pretty close. i'll need to ride it some and see where it is. but the point is i think you were right.
Thanks for your help and extra effort.

mike